“….it’s India who time to time proves its reality”

What reality you are talking about? Kargil, when Musharraf back stabbed Vajpayee shortly after his visit to Pakistan for peace? 26/11 Mumbai Terror attacks? Indian Airlines hijacking when your jihadi brother Maulana Azhar Masood & co. safely slipped to Pakistan after they were released in exchange of Indian hostages? Today everybody knows that Azhar Masood and Indian citizen Dawood Ibrahim is in Pakistan but your government doesn’t acknowledge this. Infact Musharraf also goes on to say that Azhar Masood is a religious person. What the heck is this? Tell me who posed threat to whom? It was always Pakistan who always initiated. You may accuse some Indians like Pragya, Purohit etc for bombing and killing in train. But where are they today? Right…they are behind bars and facing the trial. This is what you call JUSTICE of a democratic country. Pragya, Purohit are in Jail but Maulana Azhar Masood & Co. are roaming freely in Pakistan. Is this justice?

You calim that USSR with the help of India might have become threat for your borders, so you took help from USA and created Taliban to combat Russians. You also go on to thank Afghani Taliban for safe guarding your borders against USSR. Now these same Afghani taliban has entered your regions and slowly capturing Pakistan. Then why the hell is your government trying to eliminate Taliban in your regions if you think that they were/are safe guarding Pakistan? Why do you apply double standard? Your point of view on taliban shows that your mentality is very similar to them. Today, majority of Pakistanis considers USA and Taliban their enemy. USSR was a Super Power a few decades ago. America could not see and digest any other nations to be super power. So it took Pakistan as an ally to break USSR into pieces so that only USA must become super power. Secondly america wanted to get hold in Asia. India and China did not help americans for her selfist motives. Pakistan was the only country which needed weapons and dollars. It was USA’s this selfish intentions that it took Pakistan as help and Pakistan easily fell prey for USA. Currently USA is carrying on drone attacks inside pakistan border killing your own monsters taliban including innocent civilians. So you see, today USA and Taliban are Pakistan’s major threat and not India and Russia. Do you accept that it was Pakistan’s wrong policy that it took India and Russia as foes and USA as their friend? And..

Why cannot Pakistan see India or any other coutntry helping Afghanistan for development and progress? Why is Pakistan’s thinking so destructive? Can’t you think something constructive?

You did not answer my some questions.

Why do you think it is ok when muslims kill muslims? No one raises an issue. Example : Recent bomb blast in Pakistan on friday 27.03.2009 killing 70 muslims while offering friday namaz. No one raised an issue. Ahmadis, the fact that they are Pakistani muslims and their existence is a reality. Still they are deprived of their basic human right in Pakistan. Some pakistanis also consider them to be non-muslims. I have not yet taken into account of christians, hindus and buddhists. Looking at this, you pakistanis have no right to speak of justice for muslims overseas. Indian muslims are very safe and happy here in India. You must have read comments from some of the Indian muslims in TPS forum. Indian muslims are also very patriotic.

Yes, we admit Babri Masjid demolition was a tragedy. It must be strongly condemned. We Indians, till today feel the heat of this tragedy which was against the constitution of India. We admit. Though I don’t want to point out on religion, but do pakistani muslims admit that the mughals also demolished several hindu temples and replaced them with mosques when they conquered India? Can you elaborate on this point. Or do you want me to link the reliable reference to support my claim as proof?

Gujarat riot, again a tragedy….. a complete violation of human rights by the so called fundamentalist hindus. We accept that muslims in Gujarat riot were the terrible sufferers. But we, all the Indians irrespective of our religions, have seen and learned of not to fight with each other in the name of religion, after these riots. And you must have noticed that ever since after that, there were no communal riots.

Atrocities on Christians : You will not be able to understand because you haven’t been to India and haven’t seen the secular atmosphere here. You have heard only you false media hype. Ask any Indian christian and muslims about their experience as citizens of India. I don’t have to cast any opinions.

You did answer my other question.

Kashmir issue :

Why do Pakistan always highlight about killing and attrocities by Indian Army in Kashmir? This might be true to some extent but not to the vast extent when the rape and killing was done by the Pakistani Army in East Pakistan in 1971 which brutally killed 30,00,000 Bangladeshi. You may deny this. So do you want me quote the reliable reference in support of my claim? So stop blaming Indian Army of what it is doing in Kashmir, first look at what Pakistan has done to your, once, own land Bangladesh a few decades ago. Recently a few Indian army officers were court martialed and were suspended when they were found guilty of killing some innocent civilians, as terrorists. Atleast Indian judicial system can admit and punish the guilty. Does you pakistani army have the guts to even accept their guilt and mistakes. Your army infact surrenders on their knees against jihadi taliban. Why have you remained silent on 1971 East Pakistan genocide by Pakistani army issue?

Tell me Tanzeel, what has Pakistan given to the people of PoK? Poverty, unemployment, trained them to be jihadi, gave them guns, taught them to kill innocent people, made them suidice bombers etc etc etc. What has Pakistan given to your part of Kashmir? Tell me. And what will Pakistan give to Indian part of Kashmir once it gets Jammu Kashmir from India? Same thing which it had given to PoK. Guns and terrorism. Will this make Kashmiri people’s life better as a good human being? Is that what you want the Kashmiris to become terrorists like in PoK? You have your own part of Kashmir (PoK). But why is that only Indian part of Kashmir is much popular than Pakistan’s Kashmir? The tourist keep flocking in Kashmir in Indian part and tourism industry booms only here. It’s because India and Indian states, including Jammu & Kashmir are safe. Tourist would certainly not want to explore nature and get killed in PoK, the so called terrorism zone. Even though geographical & climatic conditions are very similar in Indian Kashmir and PoK, you would find tourism booming only in Indian part of Kashmir. Pakistan doesn’t wants democratic elections to be carried out safely and people elect their government in Indian Kashmir. Because if this happens, it is assumed that people have started to show interest in democracy, that the people are enjoying the benefits of democracy, the continous period of democracy if adapted by the people, it will also be assumed that Kashmiri’s have accepted the system and will not likely to change it. This will create a set back for Pakistan. Their fake agenda of atrocities on Kashmiri people will not be heard and will not be given importance even by Kashmiri people in India. Believe me, if you really care for the people of Kashmir of India, leave them on their own. See, they will become prosperous within few years. This may envy Pakistan whose interest is not for the well being of their people of Kashmir but rather, their interest in grabbing their land.

You did not even answer my below comment

Why do Pakistani muslims always try to portray themselves as messiah for muslims around the world? They don’t look up their own messed up country which has become a hub for terrorists and terrorism. The economic of your country has gone extrmely down. They want all the infidels around the world to suffer like they suffer and follow their 1300 years old barbaric ideology with their stone age law system. They cannot see the world to be happy nations.

Today dt.27.03.2009 a bomb destroyed a mosque in northwest Pakistan during prayers on Friday, killing at least 70 people and over 50 people are reported injured. This was done by your own muslim brothers in Pakistan. Now will you say that only muslims have the right to kill muslims. And if any infidel kills muslims, then muslims around the world must wage jihad against infidels? Can you write something on this? Why is this happening in Islamic Republic of Pakistan in which there is only 1 major religion ISLAM with only 170 milion people? Still Pakistan has lost its control governing 170 million people following the same ideology ISLAM. Imagine India with 1.15 billion population and with people of all the faiths like hindus, muslims, christians, buddhists, parsis etc., and STILL you were able to point out few incidents like babri demolotion, gujarat riots, kashmir issue etc. In India’s 60 years of history after independence, you could point only 4 incidents? We Indians, accept that those incidents were mistakes. And we also learned that such mistakes must never be repeated. Have you ever saw any communal riot after that? NO… It will never be repeated. Not like your pakistan… who knows about the threat Taliban is posing in your region and widening its terrorist network. Still, your Pakistan government has closed their eyes on this terrorism problem.

Can you write all the major incidents occured and occuring in Pakistan in its 60 years of history? I believe it will be not less than 1000’s. just try it.

Attrocities in Kashmir by Indian Army? Oh really. What did your Pakistani army do to East Pakistan in 1971? They raped women and killed nearly 30,00,000 bangladeshi. What do you call this genocide as? Love towards bangladeshi? see this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atrocities

And my ignorant friend, as far as atrocities on christians are concerned, please tell me what you people consider and do to Ahmadiyas in Pakistan? What rights are laid down for them by your constitution? Ask your pakistani christian fellow Mr. Arun R. Zaheeruddin from this forum. And also ask Mr.Johann of India about the status of christians in India. You will know the truth yourself.

Pakistani muslims always try to portray themselves as messiah for muslims around the world. They don’t look up their own messed up country which has become a hub for terrorists and terrorism. The economic of your country has gone extrmely down. They want all the infidels around the world to suffer like they suffer and follow their 1300 years old barbaric ideology with their stone age law system. They cannot see the world to be happy nations.

You must accept that the current pathetic status of Pakistan is because of its wrong policy. They consider India their enemy, but in reality your one time father US is your enemy. Pakistan made a mistake by helping US to create freedom fighter taliban to fight Russians just to earn dollars. And now your same talibani brothers are creating havoc in Pakistan and you are calling them terrorists.

If the situations remain the same, then that day is not very far when your Pakistan will fall in the hands of Taliban.

The threat of political Islam
Submitted by on 23 March 2009 - 9:39pm.

By Sadia Dehlvi

The trail of terror continues with cricketers as the latest target. The Mumbai and Lahore attacks, public executions and the murder of over a thousand civilians in the Swat valley by Taliban style terrorists are horrifying examples of atrocities committed by militant groups thriving on political Islam. Global Muslim communities require urgent measures in condemning the agenda of political Islam that distorts religious scriptures to legitimise violence. This ideology of Islamism is threatening to replace a moderate and spiritual Islam, leading to the destruction of society, particularly oppressing women and minorities.

Muslims have a moral responsibility to engage in the social, political and economic development of the societies they live in. Global Muslim societies would do well in following the exceptional efforts of the Indian ulema in denouncing terrorism and de linking it with Islam. Sincere moral outrage needs to be expressed at Taliban atrocities in Afghanistan and Pakistan, political kidnappings and assassinations, militancy in Kashmir, Shia Sunni killings in Iraq and Pakistan, fatwas that condone suicide bombings in the Israel Palestine conflict and other such atrocities that effect innocent lives. Muslims require the consensus of the international community in combating extremism but our credibility is lost when we demonstrate selective outrage as in the aftermath of the Danish cartoons.

Political Islam draws its lifeblood from the ideology of fighting the oppressor, but has clearly become the oppressor itself. Even though some Islamist groups have renounced violence and accepted the principles of democracy, marginally improved their stand on women and minority rights, they remain socially conservative. In Jordan, the Islamist party does not support the rights of women to file for divorce. In Kuwait the Islamists fought against the right of women to vote. In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood will not allow a woman or a person from a minority community to become head of state. Unfortunately, militant Islamist groups thrive in the political vacuum created by oppressive regimes in most Islamic countries.

Muslims must stop blaming the problem of extremism on catastrophic foreign policies for two wrongs simply do not make a right. Islamism is primarily a Muslim problem, threatening both Muslim and non- Muslim societies. We need to acknowledge there is a problem of theology when extremists talk of going straight to heaven after taking innocent lives.

The roots of all modern militant Islamic movements can be traced to one man called Abdul Wahab from Nejd in the Arabian Peninsula. He set out to ‘purify’ Islam, believing that Muslims had drifted away from true religion. Wahab’s followers destroyed many sacred sites he considered idols. Attacking the arts for being frivolous and dangerous, Wahab sanctioned violence against those who refused to follow his injunctions.

In 1774-5 Wahab negotiated a deal with the then nomadic tribe of Saud, forebears of the current royal family in exchange for support in their quest for political domination. Most Saudi’s reject the name Wahabbi; they either call themselves Muwahuddin- Unitarians- or Salafi, refering to salaf, the venerated companions of the Prophet. In this blinkered view, no other version of religious truth can exist. This new face of Islam wants nothing to do with Sufis, music, poetry, miracles or the countless devotional customs of Muslim cultures across the world.

Under the patronage of the Saudi Arabia, Wahabism went from strength to strength. Abul Ala Mawdudi, a journalist who translated the Quran outside the paradigms of classical propagated the Wahabi ideology. He founded Jamaat e Islami, making jihad central to Islamic discourse. Addressing non-Muslims as infidels, he grouped Muslims into ‘partial’ and ‘true’ Muslims. Mawdudi’s ideas of Islam as a revolutionary doctrine to take over governments and overturn the whole universal order deeply influenced Syed Qutub of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. These groups have been motivated by political upheavals and the rejection of traditional scholars. Syed Qutub’s brother happened to be among the teachers of Osama bin Laden.

The extremism now found in Makkah and Madinah, the heartland of Islam, is the Wahabi ideology that the Saudis have spent millions in promoting through their outreach programs. There is no tolerance for Shias, Sunni Sufis or other Muslim traditions, leave alone non -Muslims. Unfortunately, there is no collective Muslim protest against the Saudi regime for bulldozing graveyards, destroying cultural and religious heritage in the holy cities, radical sermons, or the distribution of radical literature outside Saudi mosques, many of them issuing calls for death to whoever they view as infidels or innovators of Islam. The problem of Muslim extremism began in the Muslim world and the responsibility of resolving it lies with us.

The inability to present a picture of Islam as a peaceful religion is a collective failure of global Muslim communities. We could begin with increasing the decibel in condemning violence, sectarianism, standing up for the rights of women, stop demonising the other as kufaar(infidels) and show increased support for democratic movements in Muslim countries. It is time for the devout, silent peace-loving Muslim majority to speak for Islam. Let us become louder than the radical voices that claim to represent us.

–
Sadia Dehlvi is a Delhi based writer and author of the forthcoming book, “Sufism: The Heart of Islam” published by HarperCollins India.

comments 1.

Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said: “Every act of bid’ah is deviation (dhalaal), and every act of deviation will be in the Fire.”

The fitnah of bid’ah in our time revolves around grave-worship. A fundamental doctrine of the Bid’ah cult in our day, is belief and practice in grave-worship. Among the acts of shirk offered to the graves by members of the grave-worshipping cult are:

* Making ruku of the graves.
* Making sajdah to the graves.
* Making tawaaf of the graves.
* Kissing the graves.
* Reversing away from the graves in a show of excessive veneration for the graves.
* Decorating the graves with expensive bedding.
* Placing foodstuff at the graves.
* Arranging festivals and fairs at the graves. Such fairs are called “urs” by the grave-worshippers.

SHIRK AT THE GRAVESIDES

When they congregate at the grave of a Wali, they stand there like statues expressing great humility and veneration. In fact, the humility and reverence which they display at the graves of the Auliya are never shown in the Musjid when they have to perform Salaat for Allah Ta’ala.

At the graves of the Auliya they indulge in a variety of acts of shirk and kufr. They make sajdah to the graves and they make tawaaf thereof. But, according to Islam, Sajdah is to be rendered exclusively to Allah Ta’ala and Tawaaf exclusively to the Holy Ka’bah. They burn incense at the graves and they adorn the graves with lamps and lights in open violation of Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam’s) prohibition to do so.

Grave-worship is not a new cult. It came into being after the age of Nooh A.S. Even the Christians and the Jews practised grave-worship, hence Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said: “Allah cursed the Yahood and the Nasaara because they converted the graves of their Ambiya into places of worship.”

This hadith as well as other narrations inform us that Allah’s curse settles on the cult of grave-worship. Muslims should, therefore, never be misled by the false slogans raised by the grave-worshippers. Participation, in the activities of the qabar-puja cult occasions the La’nat of Allah Ta’ala according to the explicit statement of Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam).

The members of the grave-worship sect loudly proclaim their “love” for Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam), but they ignore his condemnation of grave-worship. Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) commanded: “Do not make an idol of my grave so that it be worshipped.”

On another occasion, Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said: `O Allah! Do not let my grave become an idol which will be worshipped.”

When even worshipping the grave of Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) is prohibited, then by what stretch of imagination can the worshipping of the graves of the Auliya be permissible?

Many people not acquainted with the cult of the grave-worshippers are misled by slogans of “Hubbe Rasool” (Love of the Rasool) trumpeted by the leaders of this devious sect. Innocent and unknowledgeable people are ensnared by the sweet talk of Deen, expressed in flowery but insincere language by the peers of this cult of abomination. They vociferously proclaim their love for Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) but their life is devoid of the Sunnah of Nabi-e-Kareem (sallallahu alayhi wasallam). Expression of the Sunnah in practical terms is the natural consequence of Hubbe Rasool (sallallahu alayhi wasallam). But, far, far from introducing the Sunnah in their lives, they eliminate the Sunnah and replace it with the rituals of shirk. Thus, their religion consists of graveworship, qawwaali, dancing, fun-fairs, eating, drinking in the name of dead saints and a host of other hotch-potch shirki rituals and beliefs, all borrowed from other religions of shirk and modified for the consumption of unwary and ignorant Muslims.

Grave-worship negates Imaan. It destroys Imaan since it is the very antithesis of Imaan. Islam does not subscribe to the marxist theory of the synthesis of opposites which the atheist asserted. Such ludicrous theories are spawned by minds maddened by atheism. Thus, Imaan cannot fuse with its opposite, viz., grave-worship, to produce a superior hybrid concept which according to the Ahle Bid’ah is the cult of grave-worship - a cult superior in their minds, to all forms of Islamic Ibaadat. Islam is uncompromising in its doctrine of Tauheed. Its monotheism is unique since it is not tainted by the slightest vestige of shirk. A Muslim, the bearer of Tauheed, cannot therefore participate in grave-worship and remain a Muslim. Qabar-puja eliminates Imaan.

And the hadiths clearly mentions that grave worship is forbidden in Islam. then why do Muslims do that. And as far as taking Islam back to the 7th century is concerned isn’t it the century when the message was revealed to the prophet(saws)? Isn’t it the way we have to live our lives? by following the prophet, and his message, which was revealed to him by Allah?
comments2.
Your revoking of Rasulullah and the argument leads to the fact that you support the TALIBAN ACTION OF BLASTING SUFI SHRINE IN PESHWAR. So why don’t you openly accept that if you have your way you would want the TOMBS at AJMEER SHARIFF, NIZZAMMUDHIN, CHHARAR-e- SHARIFF and all such other be “blasted”??? So what is the difference between TALIBAN and YOU??? Isn’t The Hindus hating “fanatic Muslims” like you legitimate, as Qur’an also direct you to destroy all place of IDOL WORSHIP, kill NON- BELIEVERS etc and you could turn against the Hindus after you have destroyed the AJMEER SHARIFF???

Since you strongly believe that all TOMB worship is unISLAMIC, why don’t you get a FATWAH declaring all MUSLIMS worshiping TOMBS as KAFIRs- non-Muslims??? Excommunicate them from Islam permanently.

comments 3.

Wahabism is not Islam; Maududism is not Islam; Qadiyanism is not Islam. Sadia Dehlvi is searching Islam among non-Islamic sects. Islam is Islam. Holy Quran and Sunnah (Hadith) are the dogmas of Islam. If Talibans did crime towards others, it is the criminality of Talibans, and not of Islam. Sri Rama Sena attacked the women in the pub. It is not by the Hindus. Sangh Parivar activist killed MK Gandhi, it is not the action of Hindu.

Afterall who told you, Wahabism is Islam? Some racial outfits (like kuklux clan) in America attack Indians. Is it Christian attack or American attack?

Muslims are Muslims. Wahabis are Wahabis. Maududis are Maududis. Qadiyanis are Qadiyanis. Do not mix it. Muslims follows Islam. Muslims can’t kill a man/woman. Because Islam prohibit it. He will not go to heaven (as you said) directly, but Islam warns him that he will go to hell stright forward (you failed to said that truth)

The problem is in understanding Islam. Do not think by saying Arabs, Kings etc..etc. will make something Islam. Islam is Islam and only Islam is Islam.

@ 15

“As for Danish Muslims, please don’t give me their examples they are the citizens of Denmark and Islam has not taken guarantee of each and every Muslim.”

If you believe in your above opinion, then why do muslims in pakistan falsely accuse indian non-muslims of doing injustice to muslims? Why the hell to pakistanis always put their nose in indian internal affairs?

Tell me.

Your words — “I asked you a simple question but you never replied to me: Has Allah ordered us to implement Islamic way of Governance in society or not?”

I rest my case

I don’t believe in Arabic or Disney Islam. Islam is one which is unfortunately not being practiced anywhere in the world except Iran. West has done enough propaganda about them but if we closely observe them they are literally progressing by keeping their religious and cultural values intact. Their literacy rate is about 80%.; Iran is the only Muslim country where Stem cell research is allowed, their women work, study. It’s a true MODERN ISLAMIC nation in my eyes. I hope you know the difference between Modernization and Westernization?

As for Danish Muslims, please don’t give me their examples they are the citizens of Denmark and Islam has not taken guarantee of each and every Muslim. I thought you think beyond religion but here by sidelining MUSLIMS in a LIBERAL/ SECULAR country you have proved how tolerant your mindset is. If Denmark was a theocratic state I would have discussed religion with you but a country where people are not judged by religion should not be highlighted as Muslims or Jews. They are Danish people and that’s it.